I am thankful to each of you that take the time to post comments. I received this one and thought that I would share it directly and add some thoughts.
to the post from July 6th-
I was out to lunch with some pastors the other day and the topic of illegal immigration came up. One of the people at the lunch said something like, "Before you all mount up on your high horses, I want to let you know that I am part native American. To us, all of you are illegal immigrants."
I paused to think. Nobody said anything else on the topic. Sometimes issues aren't as easy to figure out as I wished they were. It's a beautiful day in God's world, be sure to see the good.
they commented-
You have wisely stated that issues are not always black and white or easy to figure out. I wonder what other turns the conversation may have taken, had the people in your group been able to have read this morning's KC Star story about the illegal immigrant, going by two names, stone drunk, and also driving erratically, in the wrong lane on I435 and trying to hit people. He finally succeeded in killing a mother and her beloved daughter.
This does no favors to those who wish people would welcome or tolerate illegal immigration.
And I wanted to reply.-
Yes. There are some tragic things that have been done by people that are here illegally. Every time I hear of such actions, it makes me angry. The person who commented is correct- such actions do no favors to anyone who wished to tolerate illegal immigration. I do not disagree with anything that the commenter has said.
However, my point from the other day was not so much about the issue of illegal immigration today, as it was to simply to lift up the perspective of this pastor who is of American Indian heritage. I wonder if he would not offer a long list of grievances that the whites brought to them. Killing their women and children in acts of genocide. Destroying their food supply for the intent of starving them. Making and then breaking treaty after treaty.
Some would counter that we have spent millions, maybe billions, in welfare aid to American Indians. That is true. I wonder if they would just prefer to have their families, land and way of life returned to them.
So I have all the feelings that everyone else does about immigration and what it means to health care and education costs and safety on the streets. I am just also aware that many of these injustices have been played out before on this continent, 150 years ago. And we today are the beneficiaries of those actions.
My take away from this discussion is simply that it is important for me, for all of us to understand that it is very easy for me to take a position on something and find out later that someone else has a position that is very different than mine. And sometimes they hold their positions for very good reasons, that make me stop and think.
I in no way support the criminal acts of those who are here, whether legally or illegally.
So what are you thinking about? Are you sure of your positions on the issues? Is there information out there on the topic that might help you or moderate your thinking?
It's a beautiful day in God's world, be sure to see the good.
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7 comments:
Well said Jeff. It is my nature to avoid confrontation of any type--I am basically a pacifist and always will be. I do have opinions and express them--a lot. But if it stirs up controversy, I'm the first to go silent. Hard to believe, me being silent, but it does happen. ; )
On the subject of illegal immigration, I have a very strong opinion. It's illegal. I'm a law abiding citizen and I have always been a rule follower--even as a kid. I knew there would be serious consequences if I got caught doing someing wrong and I didn't want to find out what that might be.
I'm all for immigration for anyone that wants to enjoye the same freedom that I do here in the USA. But come legally--millions of other have gone through the process in the past and are still doing so. It's the illegal that bothers me, not the people.
Jeff,
One of the things I've come to appreciate about WCC is that the church does not appear to make blanket statements about many of the world's issues. Each person brings a different schema to the issues that makes it impossible to make absolute statements. Thank you for always helping us to consider the other side of an issue, even when it's something the populous finds unpopular.
It is interesting that after 9-11, the United Nations tried to come up with a definition of 'Terrosist'. But with every attempt, the US voted no. May be due to every definition would have equated our founding fathers to terrorists.
It is too bad that we tend to label groups of people. Just because one illegal immigrant was drunk and driving the wrong way on the interstate and killed someone does not mean all immigrants are capable of that. It could have just as easily been a US citizen. It's easier to place blame I suppose on all than just one.
Sharon's point is the crux of this whole issue. Who gets to draw the line, when it comes to law and order? Why is illegal one thing o.k., but breaking the law at another point not o.k.? Is their some reason people avoid discussing the real issue? Is their some reason it is a necessity to our economy to make illegal residency o.k., if you don't get caught? God's laws teach that we are not supposed to hate the person, but have compassion. So we can love people who are here illegally, but still not agree that they should remain here illegally.
The reason these kinds of discussions usually end up going nowhere is that people are expressing their opinions about the right answer to the wrong questions. When we gain courage or wisdom to address the legitimate questions, perhaps progress can be made. "How do you feel about illegal immigration?' is not a legitimate question. Here, in my opinion, are some of the questions that need discussion.
If you make rules at your home, in order to have a healthy household and guidelines, are there issues that arise where parents say, "o.k. on this one, you don't have to keep the rules...your situation is such that it's o.k. to not go by the family rules?"
In the society that the United States has evolved into, regarding its economy, is it o.k. for economic needs to rise above laws?
Should the United States randomly decide when needs of our country override the need to obey the laws? i.e. do we tell large groups of terrorists, whose goal is to bomb our buildings and kill large numbers of people, that they cannot come here illegally, but if you harvest our food and clean our houses, for wages that Americans by and large won't work for, then it's o.k. if you do not have legal permission to live here.
If you are thinking of coming here and living illegally, is it o.k. for you to still come? And is there a feasible way to keep every one of you from not coming, if it's not o.k.?
BUT, if you already live here illegally, should we make some considerations for you to allow you to stay here, and maybe even help you become legal?
If you live in any country around the world, is it o.k. for you to come here to have your baby, so you can be a citizen through your baby's birth? And if you do, is it okay to ask American tax payers to pay for your medical care, so the baby can be born here?
And, if you were personally, rolled into one person (God forbid this ever happen) and you were the Congress, the President, and the Supreme Court rolled into one, how would you rule about illegals who are already here, and those who want to come here illegally?
When people have the courage to discuss the legitimate questions, and still love human beings, maybe some answers will come.
I tend not to look at the world through a statistical lense. I prefer to get to know real people and their stories, because sometimes stastistics can be used to hurt the people in the minority.
But by far the most prevalent arguments against people who travel to the United States without the required documentation is that they are criminals or that they are taking jobs. Yet, statistics demonstrate time and time again that the crime rate is significantly higher among American citizens than among illegal immigrants. Secondly, economists across the board demonstrate that illegal immigration is actually a BOOST to the ecomony both on state levels and on the national level. If someone has trouble swallowing these facts -- as I did -- I would be glad to site my sources when I get back to my books in the States. I would also be glad to lend any number of books on immigration currently and historically.
But at the end of the day, I am a Christian, and my paradigm is not based on statistical arguments or political rhetoric, but on how Jesus would treat illegal immigrants. We do well to remember that perhaps Jesus' first memories were as an immigrant on the run to Egypt. And of course his words about how we treat the "least of these" among us. My personal story is that it is becoming painfully clear who are the least of these currently in the United States.
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